| "Radical parenting." (Sitting on my hands) |
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| Written by OHmommy | |
| Thursday, 04 March 2010 00:00 | |
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In case you missed Discovery Health's "Radical Parenting" last night.
There were three families featured on "Radical Parenting." The first family was an un-schooling family (no school, no homeschool, no rules, no hierarchy, we learn from our surroundings). The second family was an attachment family (baby wearing, co-sleeping, nursing until ages of four, placenta freezing in the fridge for six years). The third family, a blogger, was a gender neutral family (boys played with pink castles, wore stilettos, helped bake, pretended to nurse their dolls).
Besides the first family, the show was far from radical.
Speaking just for myself in middle America, I was able to identify with the later two "radical parents." No, I have not frozen or kept any one of my placentas. But... I've co-slept with all of my children, not on a regular basis but out of pure exhaustion and loved it, I potty trained them at the earliest signs of readiness and also "wore" my kids in slings. I've tried hard to stay away from gender stereotypes which is why my three year old daughter had a reptile birthday party, blew out the candles on her dinosaur cake and chased after the boys with a foam sword in a pink tutu. More so my seven-year-old son watches his father do the laundry and does a better job sorting than me.
By far the most radical family featured was the un-schooling family (no school, no homeschool, no worksheets/textbooks, no schedule, no discipline, no rules, no hierarchy, we learn from our surroundings). I'm not quite sure what to say about Mr. and Mrs. Parent (real names) so I am sitting on my hands tonight and providing you with summarized quotes from their twenty minute TV debut.
"Can you read this to me?" A mother points to a sign at a children's museum. "You read it for me." A child answers. "Ok." So, she reads to her seven-year-old son. --- "No, I love being the outfielder. I hate being the pitcher." A five year old child screams. "Ok. Than don't be the pitcher." "Elijah's gonna be the batter, I don't want to be the outfielder. HAHAHAHA." "Ok." "Outfielder is my favorite but I don't wanna do it now." "Ok. That's your decision." --- Cut to the scene of the mother working out in the middle of the day and her daughter enters the room. "Mom? Can you put a TV show on for me?" "Sure, honey." --- "I think they learn most about math from money." The mother says while visiting a farmer's market where her seven-year-old brings one dollar to spend and she tells him he doesn't have enough. "Elijah also has learned numbers from the video games he's played. Figuring out scores of the games he plays." "Elijah got himself to read (six months ago - age 6.5) using a variety of video games." --- I missed the quotes from the food segment "we provide our children with healthy choices.... they tell us when they are hungry.... they tell us where they want to eat.... feeding their bodies.... healthy choices (said three times)" because the kids were eating donuts and cereal for breakfast and ice cream for dinner while their parents had a real meal. ---- I also missed the quotes from their bedtime ritual segment (my husband came home and told me to STOP watching because I was thrashing around in my seat screaming at the TV) but it pretty much said they go to sleep when they want to and where they want to and usually sleep on a "bubble mattress in-front of the TV" and just recently they started to "teach hygiene because the kids started to smell and all you need to say is honey you smell and I can't cuddle with you and they will take a bath!" ----
It's TV. I know. It's only 20 minutes. I know. Sitting on my hands. Sitting on my hands. Sitting on my hands.
I've erased the ending of my post a dozen times. Twenty-one times to be exact because I really do try to be open minded and respectful of most parents. The content on this post is just my opinion. But. Well. Gah. Staying true to my word I will sit on my hands and not let Mr. and Mrs. Parent know what I really think. (JUST ADDED: my very good online friend Terra who unschools wrote a post in response to mine) |
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| Last Updated on Sunday, 07 March 2010 15:41 |
Comments
The point of unschooling, on the whole, is to nurture a child's natural thirst for learning, exploring, etc. It's not just about finding transferable skills in your everyday - like video games, trips to the grocery shop, etc. (though that's part of it). It's about providing the opportunities for the world to be your child's classroom - whether that means going to the library, and picking out a book about flowers, going to a nearby garden with a camera and them taking photos, then finding out what type of flower it is, its history, etc.
You get the point. This is becoming a novel that I will have to blog about, cuz now, I'm frankly pissed that the show would (what sounds like) under- and mis-represent so boldly.
This mom READ FOR HER SON!!!!!! Who does that in real life and especially on TV? How is that nurturing a child's thirst. He was SEVEN!!!
Gah. Sitting on my hands.
I've known and worked for a couple such families and honestly can see the appeal. One family in particular led me John Holt's work discussing children's learning and I was shocked that this information is not prominent in our culture.
To each his own but at the end of the day I'll have absolutely no doubts about the fact that I did everything I could to aid in my kid's success in regards to street smarts AND book smarts.
I honestly think the un-schooled children in the special shown tonight will grow to resent their parents for this style of parenting/schooling. I really do.
How is that respectful or kind?
Regardless my comments were on unschooling and radical unschooling in general. Not this families interpretation of such.
I wish Child Services could see what your kids eat for dinner.
Discovery Health probably did put this in a dramatic effect - the kids were shown watching TV (which I particularly hate) at least a dozen times in 20 minutes.
Children thrive in many different environments--- that's part of their appeal, I think.
Waves at Judith. I am the mother Judith is talking about. I haven't read all of the comments, but I am consistently amazed at how closed-minded so many people are. How could relaxed parenting be a bad thing? Should we be chaotic instead? I was a relaxed parent who raised the above mentioned daughter. I'm still fairly relaxed while watching her work diligently on her dissertation for her PhD. She ate when she was hungry. She slept when she was sleepy and stayed awake when she wasn't. She watched tv, spent time on the computer, read tons of books and played outside...all when she wanted to.
Unschooled children learn self-discipline. No adult is telling them what to do, what to think or what to wear day in and day out. They figure things out for themselves and get Really good at making wise choices. Wise choices for them. They don't waste a whole lot of time doing what others think they should do.
I was there as her mother, giving her support and encouragement to follow whatever path she chose to follow. I was not searching for "teaching moments." We lived life. There is no way to live life and NOT learn.
Fear keeps people ignorant. Let go of your fear, people. Radical Unschooling is a wonderful lifestyle. My daughter and I have been best of friends her entire life. There is nothing to be afraid of!
Valerie Fitzenreiter
The Unprocessed Child: Living without School
One question -why would someone freeze placenta? Never heard of that before.
I'm trying to be open-minded here about the "unschooling" thing but from my perspective it would seem these kids are also -by NOT being subjected to home schooling or regular type education -not learning a bit about self-discipline then if they are always allowed to do as they please. And discipline, though maybe not the topic most kids want to deal with, is a very necessary attribute to learn to be better equipped to handle life and all the things it brings or throws at us. (I'm more of the latter type you mentioned I guess -or I was with my kids although I did most of the things the second parental group did too with my kids when they were growing up.) Also, I'm wondering -with the "unschooling" what affect this type of process would have on children with learning disabilities -dyslexia, ADDH, ADS and also, Autism? Somethings are NOT better left alone and MUST be addressed early and fully.
I know for me, it's one of the key thoughts behind homeschooling plans - when a preschool teacher's already questioning if my 3 year old has ADD and speaking about how she needs to be quiet, so as not to encourage the other children to talk to sing, it's a problem for me. I find it - have found it, when I was a kid - shaming. That removes the want to be educated.
I also agree with jimaiemarie - I'm pretty sure that formally educated children will have much more success in life, because in what world does any adult live where "who's every opinion was taken seriously and who was always treated with respect and kindness?" (quoting ~Tara above). That sounds like fantasy land to me.
However, my biggest issue with any sort of home schooling (including unschooling) is that at the same time we are requiring teachers to have Master's degrees and several hours of ongoing education each year, we allow (in OH) people with just a GED teach kids at home? And I've read several stories of parents of special needs children who fought a school system who, in their eyes, didn't provide properly trained teachers for their child's particular disability and yet are ok with homeschooling the kid themselves without any formal training on how to do so. Teachers are trained professionals, just like electricians, dentists, doctors, and engineers - I wouldn't call a plumber to fix my teeth and I wouldn't let someone (including myself) teach my kid without formal education & training.
Home learning can be as simple as following a workbook, which has the answers in the back - just like an 'educated' teacher does.
Additionally, I think it bears mention that even though I didn't even get a GED, I'm wicked smart. But I don't plan to 'teach' my daughter at all - I intend to help her teach herself.
A parent is absolutely and perfectly capable of teaching his children. The vast majority of homeschoolers go on to four year colleges and do very well.
And, yes, classroom management is part of the 5 years most teachers spend getting their advanced degree but so is childhood psychology & sociology, learning differences and techniques to teach learners of all abilities along with loads of classroom time. The University I went to required classroom time from the 2nd semester on - so by the time you graduated you had 100s of classroom hours under your belt, ending with at least 3 months of student teaching (where, essentially you are the lead teacher of a classroom, being mentored by an experienced teacher).
I 100% agree that SOME parents are absolutely and perfectly capable of teaching his/her children. I also think experiential learning is a huge part of education and I think it's our job as parents to provide that as much as possible to supplement what is going in in the classroom. It's also our job to teach our kids to question what they learn and teach them how to think for themselves. But pretending that we as parents are the ONLY ONES who could/should teach our children is arrogant. A lot of what I learned as child came from my home, but I also had amazing teachers who influenced my life like no family member ever could.
"But pretending that we as parents are the ONLY ONES who could/should teach our children is arrogant."
I'm not sure where you got the idea that homeschoolers or unschoolers believe anything of the sort. Most homeschoolers have co-ops where shared learning takes place, we all have coaches from sports, Sunday School teachers etc You are arguing against something you clearly have neither studied nor care to really understand.
Do you mean because the world is harsh or cruel we should be harsh or cruel to our children? (Should we also expose our children to second hand smoke because of all the potential smokers they could encounter?)
Yes, it's a fantasy land to believe the world is or will be perfect or that our children or anyone else will always be treated kindly. But that doesn't negate our obligations to act according to our own moral compass. (Murder, lying, stealing all exist, but that doesn't mean we think they are okay and we certainly wouldn't intentionally fail to protect them from it.)
I strive to treat my child (and anyone else - child or adult - I encounter) with respect and kindness because I feel it's how people should be treated.
Unschoolers know how to live life instead of learning how to churn in a machine that continues to eat them alive without providing any valuable life experience. They are not just another cog in the machine. They are independent and free. They value life in ways that the majority of publicly educated people cannot fathom.
What worries me most is not the education. What worries me is the lack of direction. One day, these kids are going to have to get along in society and their every desire is not going to be met. They will have to do what others tell them to, not just once in awhile, but much of the time. It's very natural for children to think they are the center of the universe. It's our job as parents to gently teach them along the way that they are not. I'm not sure how you do that if they always get to decide what they want to do or don't want to do...
Obviously the people on the tv program were majorly extreme in their "un-schooling" which sounds more like "un-learning" to me. I personally think that is very scary and just bad for our society in general. But that may just be me. Oh and EXTREMELY lazy parenting.
And where do people come up with this stuff? Don't they want the best for their children?
I obviously "don't get it." URGH!!!
THANKS Anna for the link - off to read it.
She said they talk about nutrition but yet allowed them to eat a donut for breakfast and ice cream for dinner. Wouldn't an unschooler use that as a teachable moment? I just don't get it. I really don't.
She probably goes through up and downs like all moms - there are probably times when she totally flips out and throws away all the junk and starts trying to get all the kids to eat hummus and carrot sticks instead. lol Then there are times when you order 10 boxes of girl scout cookies and the kids eat it and you figure, "well, at least then they'll be gone." No one's perfect and anyone who says they are is a liar.
So they probably do talk about nutrition. They probably cycle through all sorts of things. But not limiting was part of what was described to the camera people and so they filmed not limiting and all the nastiness that entailed. They were probably even thrilled to show the nastiness so all us viewers could be smug about what we don't let our children do. Like, we never eat fast food, right? No processed crap, right? Ever? All organic, all the time? right.
I went to public school K-12. I worked hard to learn in the classroom setting, and I developed my own personal interests in life. My parents made sure I did my homework, and taught me the importance of doing the very best I could in school, in class, as well as getting along with teachers and students. We're big supporters of recess, moving and playing are also good for children and Physical Education is well rounded.
Then I went to a four year university and got a degree in history. Then I worked for United Way as an AmeriCorps VISTA working with low-income poverty level families. Now I'm in my first year of law school in Vermont.
All in all, while some people might be opposed to traditional schooling for their children, and that is their right to do so,I went through the system, and I think I turned out pretty well. And, my parents are pretty darn proud of me as well. I've never thought of myself as a mindless drone.
Sounds like a dictatorship to me.
pepperpaints.com/.../...
I have nothing against unschoolers really. Discovery Health should have used you to better represent. The family that represented gender nuetral was very well spoken and articulate.
The Parents family appeared like huge pushovers. She said OKAY a million times to her children - poor diet - poor hygiene. Her child even interrupted her workout. The rest of the world will not drop everything and stop for those kids. Even when they are working at McDonalds (like you had written) - where they HAVE TO LEARN to respect other people's time and their boss.
I do not think the Parents family is properly raising their children to survive in the real world. You might be.
Every adult unschooler (and radical unschooler) I have ever met has been able to take care of themselves as expected by society. I cannot say that is true of every adult child who went to school that I have met, however.
See Astra Taylor and how well she was neglected: www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwIyy1Fi-4Q
This representation is probably not this, and probably not what the Tara link thinks either. It's probably something different. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe we can all sit and judge and call it unparenting. Maybe that family really does never lose their temper or do anything remotely coercive and the kids just do whatever they want whenever they want.
I do consider myself a RUer and my life doesn't look like that. I do tell the kids what to do, even if I'm not insisting they do it right then or in the manner that I would prefer. I can do both, amazingly: I can tell them "do this please" (brush your teeth, go to bed, put your clothes in the hamper, etc.) & also be willing to accept that they will make autonomous choices about what I've asked them to do.
The difference between me and some other RUers is that I don't live a child-centered life, though it might appear that way because we are not heavily scheduled. Our goal is a family-centered life. Meaning that we're all contributors here and we all get a say. We are anarchists. And that doesn't at all suggest non-cooperation or total chaos. [People always misinterpret and misuse that word!] In fact, anarchism is really all about mutual aid, collaboration, community, and cooperation. It's an emphasis of the collective, not the diminishing of it. That runs counter to what some RUers believe/practice or how the media has presented them.
"Mom can you turn on the TV" Her 5 yr old asked while she was working out.
If one of my kids interrupted my workout to ask me to turn on the TV I would point out that they have two working hands and a really great pair of legs and it will be a great learning experience for them to figure out the mechanics of a TV.
Modeling is an important component of unschooling, I think.
FWIW, I dropped out of high school to unschool 15 years ago. We also do a lot of whatever we want, within the constraints of our circumstances. We also live in Cleveland.
If you don't insist on having them do anything - how do you get them to do anything. Like read.
The whole idea of unschooling is that really, you don't have to get them to do anything. They just want to because, well, because they're citizens of this earth. What is right and good is modeled for them every day of their lives. They see my husband and I and the other adults in their lives (aunts, grandparents, neighbors, etc.) all working and living to make things happen and they want to be a part of that just like babies learn to talk and walk.
A simpler way of putting it is this - you know all the fun stuff you get to do on weekends? Stuff like hike, garden, read lazily, do puzzles, play games, watch movies? We do that every single day. We just live our lives. And they just learn.
One more thing Anna, if your child really wanted to go to school, would you let them?
Anyway, while I don't agree with this approach (at all), at least it's SOMETHING. The parents featured in the program, well, they should consider changing their last name. That's NOT parenting. That's just plain lazy and neglectful. Those poor kids are DOOMED. The real world is going to eat them alive.
As far as the gender-neutral parents, is that really all that radical in the 21st century? I have girls, but they play with cars and tools and princess stuff too.
-My husband also does the laundry! Actually, we totally co-parent and there's no sense that anything is man's work or woman's work. In fact, most of the tools in the garage belong to ME! Do I think we're "radical?" Not at all.
I was a bit thrown by the comment that they try to dress the boys in gender neutral clothes. It looked like they were in boy clothes to me. *Headscratch*
Most children will naturally learn to read somewhere between the ages of 3 and 9, given a need, access to materials, and modeling of literacy. Studies have shown that those who learned to read at 5 and those that learned to read at 9 show no difference in skill level at 13. It could be argued that a 5-year-old will then have four more years on the 9-year-old of gaining information, but that's given the 9-year-old is not gaining information in any other way. In fact, there is something about how we learn before we can read that is actually in some ways richer than after becoming literate.
You cannot prevent learning. It is innate. Unless locked in a cage, children will gain a great deal of knowledge about living in the world even without first-hand experience. The two keys are modeled behaviors and direct & varied experiences. Contriving experience, coercion, and manipulation are all totally unnecessary.
And it was Discovery Health that you should be angry with. They edited. They casted. They produced. They made it they way it looked. The Parents family looked a little but crazy.
We are all free to our opinions but when our opinions are of another person I think it's better to try and understand (as is happening in the discussions with real unschoolers here) before we decide they are unfit parents.
Saying that what they do is weird, doesn't make sense to you etc... is reasonable but, IMO, saying that they are bad parents is passing judgment, not only on them but on others who parent the way they do and it makes me uncomfortable.
There are just so many really horrible parents out there, ones who actually ARE neglecting their children and talking about a family like this one as though they fit that category seems extreme.
The discussion has mostly moved away from that idea at this point and has been very interesting and informative.
Many of the scenes included were orchestrated by the director to demonstrate particular talking points and arouse interest. Unfortunately there was a tremendous amount of footage (from 3 days of filming) that was not included of the children eating the healthy options available to them, reading to us, cooking and using fractions, sewing on their own, etc.
This show is a 20 minute piece edited by a 3rd party with 'experts' without a shred of knowledge about this and without the ability for us to respond to their stereotypical, unfounded criticisms. A child development expert would have been a much better choice.
I am grateful that we were portrayed as the connected, joyous family that we are. Please feel free to check out our family's blog to see some of our ponderings, adventures, and learning experiences: www.clanofparents.com
I also host/produce a podcast all about this: www.werhumansbeing.com
Lots of unschoolers have tried school for periods of time and left. Lots of children have been pulled from school to unschool then gone back. It takes all kinds. Like all families, we try to do what is best for all of us.
If my Catholic child (something we chose for our family) decided he wanted to be Jewish than I would talk to my Jewish friends and have them take my child to see what it was like. Once, twice, whatever. Both religions (although I don't believe in Judaism) are great.
Right? Am I missing something or completely wrong? Children are naturally curious - you give them the tools to learn through experience for themselves. Yes?
Secondly, the comparison to Africa is rather ludicrous given the number of resources available to us here. We have hundreds, possibly thousands of books in our house and at our disposal. We don't rely on primary schooling to lift us to a higher standard of living. As unschoolers, we can go to even Ivy League colleges.
You and I have very different ideas about what learning is, obviously.
I don't see what educational background has to do with this. I made a choice. If you are of the firm belief that my children are doomed, then please, go ahead, continue to think that. Your questioning, however, is not really getting us anywhere. You're just insulting me at this point.
My husband defends his PhD dissertation in two weeks. I was a guest lecturer at a university this very evening. We are fully qualified to teach formally if we so desire. We do not. If there is anything that we are losing from school, it is not a basic education.
Sort of.
We enjoy the freedom that summer brings. The later bedtimes, vacations, doing what we like all day long. Deciding each morning what the day may bring. But when school starts, we kick into a routine and the logistics change. How do you know he would have no desire to get up earlier to go to school if he hasn't tried it? He doesn't know what he's missing?
My fear is that your child may flounder in a school setting at this point. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. These children, should they ever decide to go, will have no concept of what it's like and I can imagine adjustment issues.
FWIW, my daughter is in public school, we're not in a great district. She's doing fine academically but I really feel like much of her day is wasted. She is one of 22 kids with one teacher. In order for everyone to get a chance to learn she has to sit at a desk for an hour doing worksheets. She finishes quickly and still sits quietly and draws pictures on the backs of the worksheets. She gets ten minutes outside and that's only because she races through her lunch. She'll be fine in school but we are all so much happier when she is home with us. She and I have been discussing homeschooling for a few months now and have decided to try it next year. Traditional schooling just isn't for everyone.
The second step would be to have her enrolled part-time, for a trial. If she was happy, and wanted to stay, then she's happy and wants to stay. Ultimately, it's her choice, I'm just starting her off with the opposite of what most of her friends'll be doing.
What always intrigues me about the debates on issues such as this one is those who cry "you have no right to judge." Yes, we do. We all do. We have no right to insist that someone change what he/she is doing with respect to raising children (except cases of abuse or neglect), but we can absolutely look at and evaluate and decide if something has merit. We all do it. Every day.
My view of parenting is and has always been to raise healthy, happy individuals who have something positive to contribute to society. The people I sent out into the world will be kind, helpful and mindful of others. I guess I believe that this form of parenting seems really narcissistic. I'm not sure how a child can learn to be able to see past himself when he doesn't have to. I get the naturally curious aspect of it. My son was reading at age 4 because he wanted to. And now, at 6 and in Kindergarten, he reads at a 4th grade level. Honest. And it all came from him. We were asked if we wanted to move him up a grade. Our primary reason for saying no is because just as important as educational skills are life skills...compromise, making friends, learning to follow rules and get along. Academically, my son was advanced. In life, he's right where he should be..with his peers. Just wondering how these kids are socialized beyond their families.
The socialization aspect is one that homeschoolers, as a whole, get tired of answering. Homeschoolers don't lock their kids up in a house all day. Children are involved in clubs, churches, sports, visits parks, other places with children and other members of the public gather. Additionally, there's a LARGE amount of research out there about the damaging effects of socialization in schools (read: bullying, early drug or alcohol exposure, peer pressure, racism, homophobia, etc etc).
I agree with Zoeyjane, our focus is on respecting our children in the same way we respect anyone. There are times when I roll my eyes at them, sure, but I do the same with my husband! They key is that I take them seriously.
My DVR is set...
"Why can't I drink?"
"Because you just turned 16 last week."
"But... I want just one drink" (she was drunk)
"No"
"But it's not fair."
"You will be 21 in 4 years." (obviously not a math major)
"waaa..." storms off.
Again. Just a reality TV show. About teenagers who test the limits all the time. But. These girls have never ever experienced rules/punishments. The teenager even said, "What? Now you are going to start acting like a real parent and expect me to change?"
It was heartbreaking to watch.
(FWIW, Pauline, I don't think you were saying that all homeschooling/unschooling families are wrong. Just the edited version of that family shown on that show.)
That said: We began homeschooling 1 year ago. Education-wise, it's fabulous and I could write on and on about it (I do, in fact on my homeschooling blog!) but the socializing question and the "real world" concerns always irk me the most.
My kids socialize. A LOT. As in, we have scouts for both boys, soccer, ballet, homeschooling meet-up groups (every week), neighborhood friends that drop by ALL THE TIME and on and on. In fact, because they aren't in public school and don't have homework in the evening, they have MORE opportunities to honestly socialize (with and WITHOUT parents) than the kids who are stuck with an hour or more of work every night. Also, the "real world" isn't always a room full of people at the exact same age as you are. The REAL WORLD is full of adults and children, teenagers and elderly. The Real World is always changing.
I wish that the show would have shown an unschooling family that succeeds (in fact, maybe this family IS working well and was merely edited horribly). I wish that the editors didn't decide for themselves that unschooling is Wrong and so depicted a pathetic version of it.
For us, we interact with people of varying ethnicity, race, age, and socio-economic background in authentic settings: libraries, grocery stores, volunteering, book stores, museums, galleries, restaurants, clubs, meetings, etc. I'm sure lots of parents do so with their children outside of a school environment, but we see the unnatural hierarchical structure of school as inherently damaging and choose to opt out, thus spending the majority of our time in more fluid groups.
Inherently damaging...I just don't get it. But that's ok. Because honestly, I believe that "unschooling" a child is inherently damaging as well. I see the deprivation in that choice in addition to the benefits that you are presenting.
And you make a lot of assumptions to support your theory that I must question given a few things...
Have you spent any real time in a regular elementary classroom?
Do you have a formal education?
Because the picture you paint is one of little soldiers obeying a teacher with no opportunity to question, explore, or self-direct. And I can tell you that this has not been my experience. Critical thinking is encouraged especially at the higher levels (middle and high school).
Few adults are motivated by interest and passion. Sometimes what motivates is paying the bills. Keeping the house. Feeding and clothing the kids. It is possible to do both. Most adults I know fuel their passion and interest with hobbies and some are indeed lucky enough to work in a field that feeds it.
Also, I think you meant a set "course" and not "coarse."
I have spent time in a regular elementary classroom. I took an education course in college. I went to elementary school. My son was assessed at an elementary school. When I was a teenager, I even signed my sisters' homework and took them to school and helped out here and there. I do indeed have a formal education. I think, though, that it is difficult for me to convey, in this limited setting, what precisely I understand learning to be, as you have not gathered it from my other posts already. I think that your experience would differ from mine only in terms of perception.
I want very much for my children to be motivated by interest and passion. I want them to love learning. I want them to be most truly who they are. I want them to feed and house themselves and otherwise to be happy. I would like, if I could exert any other influence, that they have a dedication to social justice as well. I won't bank on that, but I hope.
Unschooled children have attended Ivy League schools. Universities do indeed accept transcripts and letters from homeschooling parents. There are always ways.
I think this is one of those issues where we agree to disagree. I am one who believes that the type of learning you speak of is inherent in any involved parent's daily lifestyle. Without unschooling, I also encourage my children to follow their passions, discover their talents, explore museums, the theater, literature, etc. Day trips, vacations, and walks around the neighborhood provide infinite opportunities for self-guided learning. I don't see that as mutually exclusive to unschooling. I also see many wonderful benefits to a formal education that I can't recreate at home no matter how educated I may be. There is a dynamic that *can* exist in a classroom that can't be replicated in the home. That is just my opinion.
I have a daughter who is at her Open House at a major University where she will be attending school in the Fall. I sincerely find it hard to believe that said University would accept a student who had never been formally educated. The hoops she jumped through, transcripts required, letters of recommendation, essays submitted...crazy! Am I to believe that this University (and others) would accept "unschooling" as a valid form of education? I'm curious enough now to do some research of my own.
Thank you for the interesting discussion, P. You always find topics that are good for discussion.
And to those unschoolers, thank you for the education as well. Definitely not something I would ever choose for my children, but we can respectfully agree to disagree.
Cheers!
We all weigh our abilities, our values, and our circumstance to determine the best choices for our families. This is what I've chosen. I believe that even if I'm completely wrong (which of course, I don't think I am) and my children end up unable to pursue, say, astronomy because I'm somehow completely responsible for giving them such a poor mathematics background and they were raised with no study habits, then it's really no worse than if they'd gone to school.
Of course, I don't think that I'm giving them a poor mathematics background or poor study habits, or, moreover, that a formal mathematics background or strong (ahem, coerced) study habits are necessary or inevitable products of a formal education, but I'm certain the opinions of other would differ greatly on this point. It comes down to the fact that I fundamentally view the world differently than most. I do not think that tying us irrevocably to a cultural tradition is necessary for a fulfilled and successful life, even within the context of that culture. In fact, I believe that it hinders such.
anna kiss, you use a lot of loaded words with respect to education that are highly judgmental. Your digs like (ahem coerced), preparation for sitting in cubicles, and so on are honestly offensive to me, as someone who has chosen to formally educate my children. And as someone who spends a great deal of time in their classrooms, I find your assessments to be based on myth and not fact.
I believe that we, as a family, have struck a wonderful balance between formal education and teachable moments which we seize every day. My son learned to read by being curious about signs and store names and we took it from there. When he'd earn a dollar, we'd teach him about math and what he could afford to buy with that dollar (or save it for later and have more dollars). All of this is natural with involved parenting. This seems to be much more mindful than letting a child steer his own course. Would my kids prefer to play video games instead of helping me with chores around the house? Absolutely! But I do believe that a great deal of learning takes place when sorting laundry, loading dishes, using a vacuum and so on. I guess this sort of lifestyle just seems wayward to me, completely lacking in structure and predictability which has been linked to security and success in children.
Interesting discussion. I am eager to see the repeat next week.
I also never suggested that what I want for my children is not possible in a school environment. I simply said I don't think that school is necessary and I personally believe there are negative side-effects I have no intention of dealing with if I can at all help it.
Additionally, I explained at length the matter of going to school or not and how my family has approached it and I'm sorry, but Kasia, you're being really persistent and failing apparently to understand what I wrote.
I'm sorry for mucking up your comments page, Pauline! I will now bow out. Clearly, the difference of opinion is too strong.
And I shouldn't speak for Pauline, but I will...she LOVES a healthy debate on her "comments" page. She has no issue with the solid discourse that often occurs here.
Anyway, there is more than one way to address any issues that actually crop up. Unschooling is a more direct approach to life. We cut out the middlemen. If our children have a need, we seek to fill it. Amazingly, people don't require years of practice to get to a 12th grade level of education. It requires very little time if one is genuinely interested. Additionally, the assumption that everyone who graduates from high school retains all that information is ludicrous. When children wish to or need to know something, it becomes very easy to retain that knowledge.
And once again, the wish to know about something and retain it isn't unique to unschooling. Children who are formally educated have that same thirst for knowledge when it is of something they seek to know.
I'd be interested in your "speed through high school" in ----days course. How much practice is required to gain a 12th grade level of education? Please share.
I didn't say days. But surely, depending on what one needs to accomplish, one could focus and fill in gaps in education with relative ease to do something like prepare for the SATs, for example. It depends, ultimately, on how big the gaps are, and what the child wishes to accomplish. I don't really anticipate there being huge gaps. So far, my child is on target for 2nd grade, where he would be if he were in school. I don't actually measure such things, but our assessor has.
I think that everyone has a thirst for knowledge when it is something they wish to know. Unschooled children have the advantage of not regularly having subjects rendered pointless or boring by exceedingly poor teaching.
Also, I did unschool for part of high school. I am friends with adult unschoolers as well. Not the ones in books and on TV who went to Brown and Harvard, but unschoolers who support themselves and raise families and hold down decent jobs. Unschoolers who are normal people coping with normal life. I have seen this. The percentage of unschoolers who are fucked up degenerates is probably no greater than in the normal population, if not significantly less from benefiting from strong family life.
Strong family life would absolutely be on the unschooler side of the ledger. You're talking about people who make very intentional, even radical decisions to keep their families together. It's not like it's a cult. It's families who are keen on respecting children. They may take it to what you perceive to be an extreme, but the children all have people who love and respect them and are bending over backwards to help them follow their passions. Teachers can't claim that.
Strong family life is also on my side of the ledger because contrary to your very rigid view of making family a priority and keeping it cohesive, mine is. Also a significant part of family life here is respect and love. I resent your implication that your guidelines for family life have some sort of claim on that.
As it stands, they're surrounded by caring, intelligent, articulate adults who read books, participate in their communities, drive change in the world, and think long and hard about the decisions they make. With that sort of modeling (and the fact that generally, they go along for the ride), they almost couldn't help themselves but to follow suit.
Please explain to me how your white, American and middle-class kids would benefit from such a privileged existence with no education, training for a future or skills had you decided to do nothing at all.
Children born into low socio-economic backgrounds typically have incredibly limited access to the resources from which "enlightened" and esoteric knowledge comes: museums, literature, music, art, history. Generally, their families must work harder and longer for lower wages than do families of higher classes and are thus more stressed and have less time and energy to spend encouraging their children. These families are often single-parent households. They deal with issues of addiction, imprisonment, inadequate safety... They have poor access to proper nutrition. They may be immigrants with parents who don't speak English and have trouble navigating their English-speaking communities for networking and support. It is no wonder that education helps to lift these children to higher classes.
If I never bothered to read to my children, they would still likely learn to read given the intensity of modeling that surrounds them. I never taught them to walk and they learned. They saw adults walking and needed also to walk. They heard language and spoke. Children learn. You cannot stop it. The brain is built for it. Surrounding them with my lifestyle, even without going out of my way to help them with it, they would still be indoctrinated in a life that requires certain skills that they couldn't help but pick up.
I was always told to be quiet, to focus, to stop moving, to focus better. I have ADD and I was unchallenged, except for two glorious months when I got to attend a gifted program for half of the day. It was student-led learning, and in order to qualify, my IQ was tested. I scored the second highest in the school.
Every report card came back with straight As, and complaints about how I wasn't working to potential - despite potential being restricted from me. I ended up dropping out of high school for this (and other personal) reason(s). I went on to college once I reached mature student status, because, quite simply, I love to learn. I took social sciences then the MCATs and scored what is high, compared to most med students who are accepted into ivy league schools.
Traditional schooling did absolutely nothing for me, besides teach me what I didn't want. Which is an important life lesson, as well.
You know where I got most of my education? The library.
They are pleased at how natural they looked.
werhumansbeing.com/?p=329
health.discovery.com/.../...
I also have no doubt that there are some examples of very smart and successful people who have been unschooled. However, are there not many more who have had a very hard time getting a job and surviving out in a world full of formally educated peers?
Gah. Double Gah. And then EEEK.
Aren't there laws about kids and school? But anyway. Maybe school was created to churn out a bunch of drones, so that we can all go on to get drone-like jobs with which to support our drone-like lives. What happens to the un-people who are not Bill Gates? Do they get regular jobs, or what?
Granted, I'm probably not as intellectually gigantic as some; I did go through the public school system until I graduated. However, I also had the benefit of all of that other learning. I sort of thought everybody did??? I was one of those self-policing kids who did not have to be told to bathe and, as such, had a lot of freedom because my parents recognized this in me. On the other hand, other people in the house--who shall remain nameless--never would have bathed had they not been told to!
Even though I went through the drone-maker, I also like to think I can think logically and am fortunate enough to be acquainted, as well as blessed, with common sense. An agenda of "total 'un' anything for all" just doesn't make sense to me. What if the un-kids want to go to school?
But whatever. Different strokes for different folks. It's just really interesting!
So much intelligence despite the differences is promising! I guess we'll see how it all turns out in the future. I'm hoping for the best for all.
There are so many things that I have figured out how to do since I've been alive without the aid of a degree. I know my child better than anyone except for him. I'm pretty sure that I can figure out how to answer questions and help him navigate the world to the level of formal education that I myself have attained and then some. I know how to read, so if I were ever really stuck, I could figure it out, or, I could find someone to help me.
Outside the confines of having something scheduled M-F from 9-3, I can find all sorts of professionals to consult on matters of interest and passion and need. Thus we can go to the natural history museum during the day on a Wednesday, when it is especially empty and consult the working paleontologists there about fossil formations if we so desire.
We like things DIY style. To each their own, I suppose.
We just got back from Ice Skating lessons. I am unable to teach my daughter how to skate because I am deathly afraid of sharp objects and hard surfaces. This is her one activity she picked and has shown interest in.
Do unschoolers allow extra activities taught by someone other than a parent? Just curious.
Yes they do. We've had great luck with one of the ice skating rinks creating a homeschooler's class just for use because we had enough kids interested in ice skating. One mom herself is deathly afraid of ice skating, but refuses to let her fear be a detriment to her daughter's explorations. And yes, we are all unschoolers.
--Rob
They fell asleep to the TV because they wanted to. It was hard to watch, for me.
One of the brightest people I have ever met was homeschooled (not unschooled) K-8th without a TV in her house.
I know it's easy to get wrapped up in negativity on something especially when you only have a 20 minute clip to try and understand who we are and what we do. For the record, no, we don't ride wiggle cars and play baseball all day. It must be noted they were making a TV show and viewers really wouldn't have been interested in watching me "go to work." Having said that I am able to and arranged to do a lot of work fom home so that I also can spend a lot of time with my family.
Scenes where you see my son eating a donut, etc were also portrayed out of context. Our producer picked up donuts on their way over to our house for shooting that day. We actually never keep donuts in the house and our kids have Whole grain organic cereal, yogurt, or fruit 95% of the time for breakfast.
If anyone wants to have a dialogue or ask more specific questions about what we do and how we do it I'd love to engage you with a friendly dialogue. It's not about who is right and who is wrong, but what is best for your own family. My wife has a lot more information on her site about who we are: werhumansbeing.com
Thanks and peace to you all.
-Chris
I have done extensive research into unschooling, non-coercive education and democratic education and I'm finding it to be MUCH more productive for more students than traditional education. Yes, I'm a credentialed teacher WITH K-12 teaching experience and community college teaching experience. I saw in the community college what wasn't addressed in the public schools. In fact, literacy rates have FALLEN since the introduction of compulsory education in 1850.
"We were really thrilled with how our pieces of the show came together. It is virtually impossible to squeeze all that is whole-life/radical unschooling into a 15 minute nutshell. ‘Radical Parenting’ did manage to hit the high points and give a decent enough overview such that interested people can proceed to investigate on their own. We were amazed at how natural it all looked and how well it was all pieced to flow nicely together. Very professional."
We are an unschooling family, even radical unschoolers (although we prefer whole-life unschoolers). We do know the Parent family personally and consider them good friends.
Educationally, unschooling isn't the same as unlearning. It's really a different way of thinking about it. Most unschoolers would say they never have school but they could just as easily say we always have school. All kids, not just unschoolers, learn from everything they do. Unschoolers I think have a certain amount of faith that life and our children's natural curiosity will provide more than enough learning opportunities for our children to be successful in whatever paths they choose in life. That does mean that we seek out opportunities and introduce things that we think will interest our children. Unschooling does include classes and lessons and field trips to museums and zoos and local businesses. All of the unschooled kids we know (including the Parent family) have participated in these activities. We do care that our children learn and progress and take as active of a role as we can to ensure that they are successful.
Unschoolers are considered homeschoolers and are required to comply with the home education laws of their state. Every state is different. Some do require periodic testing, some portfolio review by a liscensed teacher, some only require that attendence records be kept.
As far as the parenting or whole-life aspect, giving our kids choices isn't the same as not giving them guidance. And kids don't always or even mostly make bad choices.
I do think the footage they chose for the show of the children eating donuts and ice cream was chosen purposely to illustrate that they were allowed to make those choices if they wanted. I know that it doesn't illustrate the choices that are made all of the time or even most of the time.
The kids I personally know that make their own food choices eat at least as healthy if not healthier than the average kid (even if it's just because unschoolers tend to be a little crunchier than most families). When sweets or "junk food" are always a choice they lose their specialness. Not in a bad way but in a "I must each as much of this as I can as often as I can" kind of way. It's just another choice. They can have yogurt or fruit or crackers or a cookie. They really do become just as likely to choose any of those things.
Hygeine is another area that I think a lot of people misunderstand what actually happens in whole-life unschooling homes. Baths DO happen; teeth DO get brushed. I can kindly tell my child that I think they need to bathe or brush their teeth or hair and most of the time they will; because they trust that I'm acting in their best interest. If I have to help them a little along the way, so what? They're happy to be clean. I'm happy they're clean. WIN-WIN.
I know TV is a sticky issue for some. And it is something we do when we're home. But even then I find that even though our TV is on a lot there's NOT a lot of just sitting and watching. There's pretended play and cooperative play and talk about what's going on in the show. TV is not all bad. But that's not what this is about so I'll leave it at that.
I'm not sure what's wrong with turning on the TV or any other thing they ask you to do because your child asked you to. I know in my house my DH would prefer if I operated the electronic equipment rather than the kids (even the older ones). But seriously I like to do thing for the people I love and sometimes they do thing for me just because I ask them to.
Imagine someone suggesting your children be taken away because they didn't agree with your parenting. I don't understand where this anger towards these parents comes from, the children were not being physically or emotionally abused; from what the mother said,they were being respected.
Upon further investigation I found that unschooling is based on the writings of John Holt, a former school psychologist, and someone I had to read as an education major. There are also 100's of private schools, called democratic schools, based on the exact same philosophies. It didn't take much to find this out.
Before you declare yourself judge and jury assigned to break up a happy family, at least take the time to do a little research.
Having been exposed to unschooled kids of all ages I have found them to be very social, well adjusted and intelligent generally and I know of many who are now in college pursuing their dreams and many who have become entrepreneurs. Generally when the question of college presents itself, those who wish to go in that direction research the requirements and set out to fulfill them. Most colleges have testing for home schooled and unschooled kids. These kids are not sheltered as some would assume but generally are at home in the world since that has been their classroom. They are not shy about asking questions and seem very comfortable interacting with adults as well as other kids.
Obviously, unschooling is not for everyone but for those who choose to unschool their children it can be extraordinary. It is certainly out of the mainstream but variety IS the spice of life and when everyone's choices are respected the world is a better place, I think.
My girls go to an alternative school. What in this state is called a choice school. However, it's more like a Montessori style. Teaches them to learn as well as just teaching. I do love it and it's a k-12 program. Fosters life long learning. But they have homework. They do c-saps. They have to read each night to me, just like I'm sure your older two do.
The un-schooling thing, I think some people may do it differently, but it makes no sense to me. Then again, I'm the adult in this house. My house, my rules. I'd what one would call a stricter parent. I don't take crap, or attitude and my children eat and sleep when they are told. Then again, I also am constantly told how well behaved my children are.
What you just described isn't about the schooling or lack of it, more the lack of parenting.
The truth is, that one can raise children who are independent thinking human beings, while still teaching them to respect rules. My children, especially my oldest thrives on a schedule. That doesn't mean I am holding them as prisoners.
In this world, there are rules. I have rules I have to follow at work, to keep my job. I follow rules, every time I get behind the wheel of a car, to keep myself and anyone I come across, safe. I pay my bills on schedule. It's all part of respecting our society.
If you filmed me with my kids for three days and then condensed it down to 20 minutes, I'm quite sure I could easily come out looking either like the world's best mother or like the Wicked Witch of the West, depending on who was doing the editing. I'm aware of the fact that even a documentary (which this show was not) has bias, and view with that in mind. I guess I thought everyone else did too, which is why many of these comments are so surprising (and dismaying) to me.
"We were really thrilled with how our pieces of the show came together. It is virtually impossible to squeeze all that is whole-life/radical unschooling into a 15 minute nutshell. ‘Radical Parenting’ did manage to hit the high points and give a decent enough overview such that interested people can proceed to investigate on their own. We were amazed at how natural it all looked and how well it was all pieced to flow nicely together. Very professional."
Anyway, when I saw the show, I saw the Parents treating their kids with respect, allowing them the space to freely control their own decisions, and truly enjoying time with their kids. Just like they always do.
I saw that through the obvious editing - the donut scene, for example. I thought, "ah, they are using the donut for the shock factor, during this example of how the kids have ownership of their food choices. A carrot probably wouldn't get people excited."
I can't speak for the Parents, but my guess is that the part they were happy about was seeing the respect and equality in their family reflected on the TV.
That being said, what is simply reality to one person is seemingly an insult to another. I actually do agree that traditional education is often coercive, limiting, and excellent training for future cubicle jobs. I understand that it's a good fit for some families though, and I certainly don't judge them for that. We're all doing the best we can when we make choices regarding our children, and what's perfect for my family might be abhorrent to yours. That's okay, right?
I know the Parent family personally. While I don't know them extremely well, I have had the pleasure of being around their loving family and the honor of learning from Sarah at the Rethinking Education conference in 2009.
There are some unschooling families that practice what has become known as Radical Unschooling, and even Radical Unschooling, as I know it and understand it, is NOT unparenting.
The Parent family for that matter is NOT an unparenting family! I truly believe that the media here focused on what they wanted you to see, and not the beauty that truly is the Parent family! Sarah and Chris Parent thrive and greatly enjoy seeing their children learn in a variety of environments, and they continually encourage and facilitate that learning.
Would you want to be judged and criticized because spouted a demand to your child, yelled at your child for no good reason, or spanked your child without even considering what might of been going on to spark the tantrum to begin with? No, of course not, no one would understand the background as to how you got to this CLIP they are seeing of you parenting!
It was staged for filming and the family was thrilled with how it came together.
I would hope that those that don't understand unschooling, would be self-motivated or self-driven to do some independent self-learning, unschooling, on what the heck unschooling is anyways, and not be close-minded and assume what the media portrays is truth!
It seems as though reinforcements have been called here and this has become a pulpit for unschoolers called to aid in defense of the practice. I shall gracefully bow out of the dialogue now and wish all of you nothing but the best in your endeavors, educational and otherwise.
Gah, I keep getting sucked in!
Cheers!
Anyway, great life to you as well. Cheers!
I watched the show and found it un-radical really- not enough info for me to understand unschooling at all! I have learned WAY more about unschooling here than on the show.
I don't think I have enough patience to unschool and be with my kids 24/7. Thankfully they each love school and look forward to it every day. I do think we can't possibly understand all that goes into unschooling in a 20 minute "episode." Just as we can't truly understand what it is like to have 19 kids or to be a "real housewife!"
I agree with Pauline that because it was on TV it is totally open for discussion and have really enjoyed reading most of the discussion here- including Pauline's original post. I honestly had the exact same reaction to the actual tv show. As a former public school teacher, I had a hard time seeing the mom read for the kid, the amount of tv, that they said the kids learned from video games, etc. However, having read so many comments here, I can see how it may have been taken out of context. I haven't found any redeeming video games out there- I'd love to hear which ones they use!
I think that the Parents were pleased with the portrayal because it did show them as a loving, involved family. While I don't love the sleeping to tv or the donut, I can see that this (especially the donut) is what the producers used to sensationalize. Well played, producers! It worked!
I am ok with whatever methodology is being used, but the unschooling methodology seems based on the principle of feelings and less focused on knowledge transferance. This seems shaky at best, and is done at the risk of devaluing the student's learning potential. For you unschoolers, if unschooling is so valuable, would you go to a doctor who was raised with this methodology? A breadth and depth of knowledge is so valuable that we often do require our children to become well versed in topics that are of little interest to them. A doctor of blood disorders must be well versed in all of internal medicine, even if it's not his passion.
I understand some children don't obtain this knowledge effectively in a traditional classroom setting. Those children are excellent candidates for homeschooling. But, to deprive children of the day to day rewards that persevering though a challenging, if mundane, curriculum would provide them, is shameful. Very little has been said about future job limitations. Yes, these children might not be cut out for “cubicle jobs,” but what if that is the first step towards their dream job? Is a cubicle job unethical, or just devalued because of its lack of scenery?
I'm also in favor of parents, as the ultimate barometers of their children's knowledge reception, having full financial and physical control over their children's school opportunities. (read: yay vouchers). Unschooling is only a viable alternative if a rigorously detailed curriculum provides the framework. From my understanding, this is not possible.
Whew, I'm spent. Who's offended?
There are no true rewards to "a mundane curriculum" and it breaks my heart to hear you say this, as so many traditionally conditioned and educated parents say.
I'm not offended, but anxious for a discussion. What is the role of the parent? To pass them off to outside authorities for training, or to love, nurture and support day to day? You can guess where my vote lies.
The above sentence is mind boggling. I feel like nothing I say can possibly convey how shocking that mindset is to me. I'm not offended at all. I'm saddened.
As I said earlier, My daughter was radically unschooled and is now teaching at a university, working on her dissertation for her PhD. Twelve years of boring classes could not have given her the unique perspective that she now has. As a grad student, she has already made a name for herself as a professor that students love to learn from. She regularly has classes of 200 students with close to 100% attendance throughout the semester.
Why not a cubicle job? If you've ever worked one, you'd know why. It's mind-numbingly boring and doesn't allow creativity, something the world (and each one of us) needs desperately.
For example.... the President. Or my sister that is "stuck" at a desk all day long finding aid to third world countries. Or the person researching how to raise enough money to cure cancer, stuck behind a desk all day.
Yeah. Desk jobs really suck.
And barb, I am sorry, but how dare you ask Sarah why she became a mother simply based on her decision to work outside the home. That is an offensive and rude judgment to make not to mention the mothers who must work.
Ugh. Just ugh. Now I'm sitting on my hands.
All unschoolers don't agree on everything just as all schoolers don't. To attack each other and create feelings of animosity over personal beliefs is non-productive. Non-productive unless you're trying to rile people.
Having unschooled my daughter, I am a believer in radical unschooling. I've seen the results firsthand. I also believe in my sister, an assistant principal in an elementary school. I could no more have sent my daughter to school than my sister could have kept her sons at home.
What's right for the goose, isn't necessarily right for the gander.
Passionately hostile words are not the way to get people to hear your side. I apologize if any comments I made gave anyone a moment of frustration.
Second, I do support alternative forms of education for children, but I am just not sold on unparenting. I don't see the big issues of being accepted into college because some colleges, especially liberal arts schools, do look for unique educational experiences when they look at applicants.
Some things that troubled me from the show: Mom said "there are no consequences" What? Everything decision we make has consequences. Your decision to unschool has consequences. Your decision to go on national TV has consequences. Do your kids understand that they do?
Also, while I understand that some kids don't like to perform when asked, especially in front of a stranger with a video camera, from the footage on TV, it appears that the kids really don't understand how to add and subtract. They understand that society uses money to buy things, but mom had to tell them how much money was enough. She did all the processing. How long will you leave it up to the kids to learn?
;D
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